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JulianCharteris wrote:
So if there is no son or the son dies, the daughters' share drops from $1000 to $400 each?
Exactly
Now you got it
And if there was one daughter, she gets $6000 and assume there is no parents or a wife, then there will be $6000 to go to the relatives, the needy and poor (if they ask) and if they don't then she can take the other $6000 to her too _________________ http://free-islam.com
Posted:
Tue 04 Dec, 2007 3:11 pm
ronny
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR
Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran. [The Quran ; 15:1]
الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1)
-> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran
Here it is with an Alif at the end:
A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know: [The Quran ; 41:3]
كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3)
-> See قُرْآنًا, Qurana, i.e. Quran
In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR
Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority. [The Quran ; 52:38]
أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (3
-> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder
Here it is with an Alif at the end:
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. [The Quran ; 6:35]
وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35)
-> See سُلَّمًا, Sulluma, i.e. Ladder
In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR
And finally, the word MaqamPlace, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Surely the pious are in a secure place [The Quran ; 44:51]
إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51)
See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place
And here it is with an Alif at the end:
And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory. [The Quran ; 17:79]
وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79)
See مَقَامًا, Maqama, i.e. Place
In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR
hello AhmedBahgat,
this was a nice explanation, understandable even for a novice in arabic like me.
i do have 2 questions.
how come ثُلُثَا in 4:11 doesnt end with the double fatha as in the examples above where each word ends with the double fatha.
are there exemples in the quran where a word ends with alif without the double fatha as in 4:11.
thank you
Posted:
Tue 30 Jun, 2009 10:10 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
AhmedBahgat wrote:
Singular words with an added Alif in the end due to the Irab are very common in the Arabic language, here is 3 examples from many in the Quran, in each example I will show you the singular word without an Alif then the same word but with an Alif, and in both cases the word stayed SINGULAR
Let me start with the word Quran, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Alif Lam Ra. These are the signs of the Book and an obvious Quran. [The Quran ; 15:1]
الَرَ تِلْكَ آيَاتُ الْكِتَابِ وَقُرْآنٍ مُّبِينٍ (1)
-> See قُرْآنٍ , Quran, i.e. Quran
Here it is with an Alif at the end:
A Book of which the verses are explained, an Arabic Quran for a people who know: [The Quran ; 41:3]
كِتَابٌ فُصِّلَتْ آيَاتُهُ قُرْآنًا عَرَبِيًّا لِّقَوْمٍ يَعْلَمُونَ (3)
-> See قُرْآنًا, Qurana, i.e. Quran
In both cases the word Quran or Qurana stayed SINGULAR
Another example is the word Sullum, Ladder, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Or have they a ladder by which they listen? Then let their listener bring a clear authority. [The Quran ; 52:38]
أَمْ لَهُمْ سُلَّمٌ يَسْتَمِعُونَ فِيهِ فَلْيَأْتِ مُسْتَمِعُهُم بِسُلْطَانٍ مُّبِينٍ (3
-> See سُلَّمٌ , Sullum, i.e. Ladder
Here it is with an Alif at the end:
And if their turning away is hard on you, then if you can seek a tunnel into the earth or a ladder in the heaven so that you should bring them a sign and if Allah had pleased He would certainly have gathered them all on guidance, therefore be not of the ignorant. [The Quran ; 6:35]
وَإِن كَانَ كَبُرَ عَلَيْكَ إِعْرَاضُهُمْ فَإِنِ اسْتَطَعْتَ أَن تَبْتَغِيَ نَفَقًا فِي الأَرْضِ أَوْ سُلَّمًا فِي السَّمَاء فَتَأْتِيَهُم بِآيَةٍ وَلَوْ شَاء اللّهُ لَجَمَعَهُمْ عَلَى الْهُدَى فَلاَ تَكُونَنَّ مِنَ الْجَاهِلِينَ (35)
-> See سُلَّمًا, Sulluma, i.e. Ladder
In both cases the word Sullum or Sulluma stayed SINGULAR
And finally, the word MaqamPlace, here it is without an Alif at the end:
Surely the pious are in a secure place [The Quran ; 44:51]
إِنَّ الْمُتَّقِينَ فِي مَقَامٍ أَمِينٍ (51)
See مَقَامٍ , Maqam, i.e. Place
And here it is with an Alif at the end:
And during a part of the night, pray continuously beyond what is incumbent on you; maybe your Lord will raise you to a place of great glory. [The Quran ; 17:79]
وَمِنَ اللَّيْلِ فَتَهَجَّدْ بِهِ نَافِلَةً لَّكَ عَسَى أَن يَبْعَثَكَ رَبُّكَ مَقَامًا مَّحْمُودًا (79)
See مَقَامًا, Maqama, i.e. Place
In both cases the word Maqam or Maqama stayed SINGULAR
ronny wrote:
hello AhmedBahgat,
this was a nice explanation, understandable even for a novice in arabic like me.
i do have 2 questions.
how come ثُلُثَا in 4:11 doesnt end with the double fatha as in the examples above where each word ends with the double fatha.
are there exemples in the quran where a word ends with alif without the double fatha as in 4:11.
thank you
Salam Ronny
Welcome to FI
Just be aware that no one is immune from mistakes, my understanding above needs further work from me to make sure I got it right, so keep an eye on this thread
In regard to your question of an example of a verse where a noun is ending with an extra Alif while not having the double Fatiha, I believe there are many but can I confirm first, are you after a noun with an ending (extra) alif, or are you after a noun that is DUAL with an ending Alif?
my understanding above needs further work from me to make sure I got it right, so keep an eye on this thread
ok i hope you keep this thread updated when you can, its an extremely important topic that could clear many misconceptions in the muslim world.
also i noticed this thread is part of a debate you had with people who couldnt refute the grammatical analysis so they presented the objection that how come 2 daughters get 1/3 while 1 daughter gets 1/2.
i would reply that the remaining share of the inheritance can be distributed as the deceased wishes it in his testament (he doesnt have to give all the remained to the orphans or needy), he may give most of it to the daughters to compensate and the rest to the orphans and needy per 4:8.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
In regard to your question of an example of a verse where a noun is ending with an extra Alif while not having the double Fatiha, I believe there are many but can I confirm first, are you after a noun with an ending (extra) alif, or are you after a noun that is DUAL with an ending Alif?
im looking for a word of the same nature as thulthaa in 4:11, NOT dual with an alif at the end and without the double fatha.
also please could you explain why does thulthaa not have a double fatha, as opposed to the examples you gave of singular words ending with alif and double fatha.
and finally is there a case where a dual noun ends only with an alif (that is without alif + noon or ya + noon)? i dont think it can be possible, but im asking to make sure.
thank you
Posted:
Tue 30 Jun, 2009 7:15 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
my understanding above needs further work from me to make sure I got it right, so keep an eye on this thread
ronny wrote:
ok i hope you keep this thread updated when you can, its an extremely important topic that could clear many misconceptions in the muslim world.
Sure, I am glad you opened the subject again, as I still need more work to do. I also agree with you that the subject is very important, HOWVEER, and this is a huge however, even if you get the division wrong, there is another option that should overwrite any division, which is simply, accoridng to a WILL, i.e. if a deceased left a will then the divsion accoridng to these shares mentioned in the verses may not happen at all
Imagine I had 100,000 bucks when I died, now, if I leave a will to give all that money to a specifuc person then nothing will be left to divide, therefore the divsion mentioned in the verses may not apply if a will was left.
ronny wrote:
also i noticed this thread is part of a debate you had with people who couldnt refute the grammatical analysis so they presented the objection that how come 2 daughters get 1/3 while 1 daughter gets 1/2.
yeh mate, it was a long debate that spanned over 3 sites, however that guy whom was debating is only a jerk robbing off my time so i dismissed him, you should see his name in the FFI life dismissal list (bin lyin)
ronny wrote:
i would reply that the remaining share of the inheritance can be distributed as the deceased wishes it in his testament (he doesnt have to give all the remained to the orphans or needy), he may give most of it to the daughters to compensate and the rest to the orphans and needy per 4:8.
Sure, however I say that the wish of the deceased will take priority over the shares mentioned in the Quran, also any debits by the deceased with even take the highest priority, let me put it simply:
Debits -> Will -> Shares
I.e. the debits should take precedence over the Will and the Shares, while the Will should take precedence over the Shares.
AhmedBahgat wrote:
In regard to your question of an example of a verse where a noun is ending with an extra Alif while not having the double Fatiha, I believe there are many but can I confirm first, are you after a noun with an ending (extra) alif, or are you after a noun that is DUAL with an ending Alif?
ronny wrote:
im looking for a word of the same nature as thulthaa in 4:11, NOT dual with an alif at the end and without the double fatha.
Ok, now I got what you mean, it is hard to find one actually, not that I think there is none in addition to the word Thultha, I just need more time to search as the only way to search is to physically read the Quran sura after sura, I cannot use my software to initiat such search as I have very little to enter as a criteria, normally I search the Quran based on a word that I am aware of, now because there is no word before hand, I have to actually read and find it myself, so be patient with me please
ronny wrote:
also please could you explain why does thulthaa not have a double fatha, as opposed to the examples you gave of singular words ending with alif and double fatha.
I believe the reason is simply, because the word grmatical position is a delayed Mubtadaa, i.e. it should come first like this
Thultha Ma Tarak Luhunna
i.e. it should have a diacritical mark of Dummah, so the alif is used instead, on the other hand you should be aware that I am still working out of Thultha is singular or Dual, I actually lean to believe now that it is dual more than singular, I already expressed that to the guy I was debating on another web site, here is the link:
and finally is there a case where a dual noun ends only with an alif (that is without alif + noon or ya + noon)? i dont think it can be possible, but im asking to make sure.
Actually a dual noun can end with an alif, or even a ya, for example, the word in hand "thultha" can be expressed as dual as folloing:
Thultha
Thulthan
Thulthay
However what makes me lean to chnage my understanding (again) that the word as mentioned in the verse is actually dual, is simply, a dual word cannot have Tanween, i.e. it cannot have the double fatiha or the double kasirah at the end
the bottom line is as I stated earlier, if I found the shares hard to understand then I will use my will to overwrite such shares by simply specifying where every buck of my estate should go too
I believe the verses of inheritcance are only there just in case there is no will.
Allah knows best
Note: I will go out for about 2 hours then when I come back I will spend about 2 hours reading the Quran to try and find the word you are after
I also retreat my statement in my first comment to you, when I said that I believe that there are many, in fact after reading a few suras, I actually believe now that it is hard to find, but I will keep trying inshaallah and let you know
the best argument that could be presented in favor of thulthaa in 4:11 being DUAL is that it does not have tanween.
but i tend to believe it is in the singular because of 4:176 where thulth is clearly in the dual form with alif + noon at the end, and i see no reason why the noon should be absent from thultha in 4:11 if the verse meant it in the dual form. is there any grammatical reason for such omission of the noon?
also if we could find other instances where a word(s) ends with alif and without tanween as in 4:11 while remaining SINGULAR then it would further strengthen the argument that thulth in 4:11 must be in the singular.
Posted:
Tue 30 Jun, 2009 8:52 pm
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
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ronny wrote:
hello ahmed and thanks for your time again.
Salam mate
No worries, anything that relates to the Quran bears no limit to the amount of time I may spend on it.
ronny wrote:
the best argument that could be presented in favor of thulthaa in 4:11 being DUAL is that it does not have tanween.
And that is the only thing that made me torn and re-think my understanding, however and again this is a big however, not having the Tanween does not conclusively imply that it is dual, because the singular may also have no Tanween
ronny wrote:
but i tend to believe it is in the singular because of 4:176 where thulth is clearly in the dual form with alif + noon at the end,
I tend to agree with you, however there is a gramatical rule that I am trying to find for sometime now where the last NOON in a dual word may be omitted, and in this case the Noon may be there but was omitted due to a complex grammar rule, I sort of remember it slightly but cannot pin point it yet
ronny wrote:
and i see no reason why the noon should be absent from thultha in 4:11 if the verse meant it in the dual form. is there any grammatical reason for such omission of the noon?
I think that there is a complex grammar rule where the last Noon in dual words, or the last Ya in attached words, like Ibady, i.e. (My slaves), may be omitted
ronny wrote:
also if we could find other instances where a word(s) ends with alif and without tanween as in 4:11 while remaining SINGULAR then it would further strengthen the argument that thulth in 4:11 must be in the singular.
I actually had a drive and listened to suras 50 to 60 while driving, in a verse in sura 56 he pronounced two nouns that both ends with and additional Alif, i.e. the two nouns can also be stated without the Alif, and the reader did not pronounce the Tanween, but before I tell you the verse let me first explain something very important:
The Tanween is optional, in fact I read the Quran without it, the main purpose of Tanween is to make it easy to read some words after each other
The Tanween is also not explicit with a double Fatiha and an Alif at the end, in fact the Quran is full of Tanween throughs words that don't even have an Alif at the end, I can show you many examples of that as I listened to it while I am driving. You can also have Tanween with a double Dummah or a double Kasirah at the end, so the existence of Alif at the end does not really mean that there is Tanween,
Now before I tell you the verse, bear in mind that if you look at it WRITTEN, then you may see the double Fatiha at the letter before the last Alif, however when read (as you should hear it in a moment), the Tanween was never pronounced
The verses are 56:25-26
here are the verses as written wiith the diacritical marks:
Now, if you hear those 2 verses as read by a professional reader (can be heard on Free Islam MP3 Player), you will notice the following:
1- 56:25 لَغْوًا , was read with Tanween, Laghwan
2- 56:25 تَأْثِيمًا, was read without Tanween, Ta'athima
3- 56:26 قِيلًا , was read with Tanween, Qilan
4- 56:26 سَلَامًا, was read with Tanween, Salaman
5- 56:26 سَلَامًا, was read without Tanween, Salama
You should notice that the last two words in verse 56:26 ARE IDENTICIAL IN ALL ASPECTS:
1) all letters are the same
2) all diacritical marks on all letters are the same
However, one was read with Tanween, and the other was read without Tanween, which should prove to you what I said earlier that the Tanween is OPTIONAL to make the reading easier, and most likely to connect to a word after it (IN PRONOUNCIATION only)
Therefore, all Quran students should really ignore the Tanween if it will cause any confusion to the meaning, and as you may have noticed that this is what the Kafirs picked on in my debate, i.e. picked on Tanween and to be honest they were stunned by my reply that Thultha may mean (1/3) i.e. singular, so they confused the subject with the optional Tanween issue trying hard the tactics of, if you can beat your enemy, confuse them with any crap.
Let me now do some surgery and try to cut those two verses from the MP3 file that I have for sura 56 and listen for yourself:
it would be interesting to find this grammar rule permitting the omission of the noon at the end of a dual word, and see if it applies to 4:11. unfortunately this is beyond my arabic knowledge.
i was aware that Quran reciters often -if not always- omit the tanween in their recitation when the word is at the end of an ayah, however this is not a conclusive example of a singular noun ending with alif but without tanween as we are contending for 4:11. i am currently searching for such word.
Posted:
Wed 01 Jul, 2009 12:15 am
AhmedBahgat Site Admin
Status: Age: 59 Faith: Islam Gender:
Zodiac: Joined: Oct 16, 2006
Posts: 3236 Location: Australia
Post subject:
ronny wrote:
salaam
it would be interesting to find this grammar rule permitting the omission of the noon at the end of a dual word, and see if it applies to 4:11. unfortunately this is beyond my arabic knowledge.
i was aware that Quran reciters often -if not always- omit the tanween in their recitation when the word is at the end of an ayah, however this is not a conclusive example of a singular noun ending with alif but without tanween as we are contending for 4:11. i am currently searching for such word.
Salam mate
I have two grammar books but are huge, one of them not organised well which is the one that is more comprhensive, I am still looking
For the mean time can you listen to verse 58:2 and hear the word 'Zoora'
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