snooze wrote:
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My understanding of this is that it meant women whom you fear or suspect disloyalty and ill-conduct and NOT those who are already guilty of disloyalty and ill conduct.
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Blakrose wrote:
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Sorry Ahmed, but I didn't get a chance to read the whole lot of that.. Anthony kept wanting me lol.. but what if man did the same thing?
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Blakrose wrote:
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I guess my questions are more along the line equality. take care
Tracey
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All_Brains wrote:
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I read your article...Good work, I must say that eventhough I differ with you and will show you how in a second, I really like your oganisation and sequence of thoughts...
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All_Brains wrote:
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Now....
I have a problem with your explanation that it automatically assumes that men are the leader and the judge when it comes to marital conflicts.
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All_Brains wrote:
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It did not even once persume that although the man thinks that the woman is disobedient or disloyal, he could actually be wrong!!
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All_Brains wrote:
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It also presumes that the man is the bread winner, which was true then in an old Arab community....This is now far from the truth in the western soceity and women do a wonderful job being a productive half of our modern society, after centuries of man dark and injust dominance over women.
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All_Brains wrote:
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The entire surah paints a picture of a dominant wise man, who is fully in control of the assessment, judgement and issuance of verdicts...Man calls the shots! This is the real problem! The beating is the climax of the Suarah of course, but all other elements display a perfect man's world.
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All_Brains wrote:
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Why did not Allah issue a surah that shows women what to do when the situation is in reverse????
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All_Brains wrote:
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Why are disloyality and infedilty were attribued to women as a possiblity, but never presumesd that man can do such horrible thing...
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All_Brains wrote:
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The beating of the wife Surah with all its elements paints a perfect picture of the relationship between men and women few centuries ago, not anymore! Women are free and don't need men to survive, they need them to love and be their life journey partners....
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All_Brains wrote:
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Also, one last thought!
No longer strength is required to obtain a job (unless your are a bouncer)!
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All_Brains wrote:
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Mostly intellect can get you now the better job...and boy oh boy...do women compete in that area or what?
Your thoughts!
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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then all doctrine to punish a perverted woman are flawed, how about we leave her to continue her perversity?
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darth wrote:
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What exactly is a "perverted" woman? How do you judge that she is "perverted"? What exactly are the criterion you look for before you decide to beat her up?
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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yeh, yeh yeh, let the women be a pervert, sounds like pimping to me
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darth wrote:
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Why bring pimping into this? Quran allows a man to be a pimp (24.33).
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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that is not teaching bro, this is disciplining a perverted adult, but fine withy me if your wife is a pervert, just leave with it bro, I won't I will talk to her first then I will leave her alone in bed and if she continues her perversity and I won't live with her I will beat her, now this is my life and I'm happy to follow a flawed doctrine,
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darth wrote:
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You won't be too happy following this doctrine if you try to beat up your wife in a country with secular laws.
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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I would rather leave a psychological scar on a dear wife than leaving her perverted, it seems you prefer a perverted wife?, fine there are many, please pick one and enjoy a swinging life
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darth wrote:
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Please tell us first what is "perversion".
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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hahaha, nice twist bro, it seems all here learnt this professionalism from the Doctor, in the verse of the Quran there was no guidance teaching, it was only teaching a perverted woman a lesson befaire she dies and be held accountable by her God
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darth wrote:
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The quran allows beating not just the perverted woman (whatever that may be) but a woman about whom you fear disobedience.
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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and it is beyond me too, but I managed to see sense in it for the better of the perverted women
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darth wrote:
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Except that the verse does not define what is "perversion".
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darth wrote:
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So how can it be better for the woman?
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darth wrote:
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Maybe to me perversion is when I have told her not to look out of the window and she does.
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darth wrote:
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How can my beating her up to stop her looking out of the window be better for her?
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darth wrote:
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Admit it- this is a very silly verse made up by mo.
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All_Brains wrote:
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It's very curious how did the Quran deal with the situation in reverse.
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All_Brains wrote:
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You'd think the same sequence shold take place ...Abdonishment, dersertion in bed and then beating up!
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All_Brains wrote:
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Even if we take out the beating up, where are the other two....
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All_Brains wrote:
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When the situation is in reverse, it's clear that the Quran has a complete different solution, which is through settlement or mediators!
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All_Brains wrote:
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You know why...beacuse it's out of question that the woman try to wisen up her man in Islam....it's a no go that women refuse to offer sexual services to men in Islam...
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All_Brains wrote:
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Allah's solution to the (same) problem differed when dealing with both genders....Allah is sexist!
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AhmedBahgat wrote:
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Of course and I accept your argument, however the husband will start by firstly confronting her politely if he thinks that she is involved in ill conduct, now assuming the wife will admit then we have no problem but if she will not admit and deny then the husband can easily monitor her and prove her ill conduct through a private investigator for example or who about contacting the American sho Cheaters
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Huston wrote:
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Where does it say talk to her politely? It says to chastise her, in other words, tell her where her position is. So it is not polite, it is derogatory.
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warner wrote:
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Peace Ahmed
Your interpretation on 4:34 was on the basis of the loving husband ill conduct/unrighteous wife. That interpretation was alright till end of 4:34, but my concern is 4:35 where the responsibility falls even on the society and the family of both the man and the woman to try to make sure the marriage does not fall apart. I guess the ill conduct mentioned in 4:34 is about minor issues/differences faced in marriages not a major issue as cheating.
Also,
The word used for beating ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????wadhribuhunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is it not the same used in 4:94 ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????darabtum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and 4:101 for travel or go forth.
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Quote:
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I hit the subject on the nail and I never tried to evade it as many confused Muslims do, indeed if you state this wife beat8ing argument you will hear many says that Idrabo in the verse means abandon them, which is a clear cut manipulation, others will say the beating must be light, like Yusuf Ali who added the word lightly in his translation, and I disputed that, indeed when it comes to the Quran I try to be honest as much as I can be regarding its words, I don't want to accumulate horrible sins as many Muslims do by manipulating it.
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All_Brains wrote:
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Eventhough I may differ with you in opinion, but I also respect your for the honest approach.
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Quote:
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fine and even if I acceot that argument by, again that is great wisdom from Allah to give te woman a full protection i.e. there will be thits parties who are trying to make peace between the two and those two are A pervert husband and a wise wife i.e. peace won't happen until the husbands stops his ill conduct or divorce must happen.
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All_Brains wrote:
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I actually accept this approach more than the manly one. It very much talks about discussion, counceling and mediating of families and friends. My problem is with God's solutions when the man is disobeyed.
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Quote:
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it is up to Him how He addresses both, it is not up to you nor up to me
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All_Brains wrote:
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Remeber you are talking to a bunch of Christians, Jews, Hindus, Budhists, Atheists, Agnostics and Muslim Apostates...Who will question every action or attribute to Allah that are not in line with common sense, justice and decency.
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All_Brains wrote:
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The above anwer will not cut the mustard when trying to persuade scpetics of your view point...
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All_Brains wrote:
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After all we can say....why would we believe in a God that does not make sense at all!!!
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Quote:
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Well, I see the solution of the women is far better for them than the solution for the man
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All_Brains wrote:
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Spot on Ahamad...and that's what the civilised world is practising at the moment...negotiation, discussions and counceling....beating will put you in jail!
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Quote:
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and because Allah always defrentiated between the two regarduing many issues, you can add this one to it, no problem it is up to Him, donlt you realize that we are dealing with a God or what?
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All_Brains wrote:
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I am an Agnostic and I have freed myself from the fake taboo of Haram..
If an alleged God's action defy common sense, you gotta raise the question mark!
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All_Brains wrote:
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Believers of other religions can just do the exact same thing...
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All_Brains wrote:
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You can't question My God.
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All_Brains wrote:
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but after all, we make our assessments based on what we have on hand...So, if you don't have an answer that's ok, but please don't blame it on the shortcoming of the human brain....This is the illusion that religions want you to believe, so that they can limit your progress and be not able to discover the hoax!
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Quote:
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Yes I'm Egyptian, and yes you are smart
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All_Brains wrote:
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Wana kaman ya sahby....sabah al ful, izaiak ya wad!
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All_Brains wrote:
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For the rest to understand I am also Egyptian through my Dad... I have four nationalities.
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Quote:
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Great, however for the alleged grammatical mistakes I will only do it on FI, not FF, thank you, this is not negotiable
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Quote:
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and who created that science?
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All_Brains wrote:
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This is another story Ahmad! We are not trying to prove the existence of God...
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All_Brains wrote:
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I am sure you agree with me that science is great
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All_Brains wrote:
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and does not have to necessarily collide with spirituality, both can live together under the sun! You have done a great job with your web-site due to your IT expertise, thanks to your intellect....now this is something we can trust.
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Quote:
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not really because the Quran states that the earth is round and rotates around its self.
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All_Brains wrote:
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And in the spirit of helping the maximum number of people to find their own truth...Please go ahead and respond to the above with regards to the wife beating surah and let's then leave people to draw their own conclusions..
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All_Brains wrote:
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I will then start a new point to discuss.
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All_Brains wrote:
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p.s ; Ahlway walla zamalkawy?
Talk to you later!
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All_Brains wrote:
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Hello Huston
I support Ahmad's translation of the Arabic word. It does actually mean to wisly advise or to admonish.
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warner wrote:
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Your interpretation on 4:34 was on the basis of the loving husband ill conduct/unrighteous wife.
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warner wrote:
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That interpretation was alright till end of 4:34,
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warner wrote:
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but my concern is 4:35 where the responsibility falls even on the society and the family of both the man and the woman to try to make sure the marriage does not fall apart.
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warner wrote:
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I guess the ill conduct mentioned in 4:34 is about minor issues/differences faced in marriages not a major issue as cheating.
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warner wrote:
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Also,
The word used for beating ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????wadhribuhunna????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? is it not the same used in 4:94 ????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬????????darabtum????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬???????????????????????????? and 4:101 for travel or go forth.
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warner wrote:
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Since we agree that ill conduct is not about cheating I guess we are talking the same language.
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warner wrote:
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As you pointed I withdraw minor from offences since we can not make such distinction from the verse.
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warner wrote:
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Will you be in a position to list 5 examples of ill conduct by a wife which can qualify in this situation?
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warner wrote:
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On the issue of darab why do you think the same meaning of go away/separate cannot apply in 4:34 as in 4:94 and 4:101.
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Quote:
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually this my big problem with the Quran aloners, I stick to the literal Quran and they don’t, everyone of them can manipulate the verse the way everyone sees it
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Quote:
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Actually this my big problem with the Quran aloners, I stick to the literal Quran and they don????????????????????????????¢?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¬?????????????????????¢??????????????????????¢t, everyone of them can manipulate the verse the way everyone sees it
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The wrote:
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# okay..this does not relate to the issue at hand...but i will still bring this up...
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The wrote:
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# i am surprised bro...when u know somebody is manipulating the quran...then how can u call him/her quran-aloner?
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The wrote:
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...never...if somebody quotes a verse or a word out of context...lends his/her own imagination to it...and "references" it with stuff which s/he cannot establish...and entirely ignores the context....such a person is not a quran-aloner!
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The wrote:
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## ...many traditionalists feel that quran-alone is about manipulating the quran...
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The wrote:
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let us not contribute to this misunderstanding by calling those who do not promote the quran but their vanity, "quran-aloners"!
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Quote:
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ahmedbahgat wrote:
Please feel free to bring up anything you want
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Quote:
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I agree it's a contradiction, however what I meant is nothing more than a label to that group, I mean this is how they call themselves, on the other hand yes I donlt believe that they follow the Quran alone
I agree, however i only use it to refer to them as they are known with, but indeed they are not followers to the Quran alone
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Quote:
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I think it makes sense so the non muslims don't get deceived by thinkking that this sect use the Quran alone
what do you think of a proper name to be given to them?
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Quote:
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ahmdebahgat wrote:
What can I say bro
I guess I have to agree with you
Indeed one of their young moderators names wakas is harassing me with PMs on FM after that FM B**** magi distrubed the thread of the wife beating and posted a stupid comment hailing the cock, did you see that? all idid I asked him if he is a homo
that kid wakas started to harras me after I relied to him, I posted a comment to ask if the word homo is not allowed on FM and he deleted my comment
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Quote:
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the moderators of FM are absuing their power mate especially with those who prove their delusions and wishful thinking wrong
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jonny_k wrote:
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you interpret "daraba" in 4:34 to beat those wives
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jonny_k wrote:
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just cause they didnt wanna obey their husbands in a certain manner.
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jonny_k wrote:
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this is just the same as saying the word "sallu 'ala" means "to pray for" instead of "make contact with/support" thus idolizing Muhammad.
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jonny_k wrote:
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Both words are nowdays commonly used by Arabs to mean what i said BUT IT IS BIASED, ILLOGICAL AND TOTALLY WRONG.
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jonny_k wrote:
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Bro Layth has also quoted 18:11 which in context refers to the persons/humans and it doesnt mean "beating".
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jonny_k wrote:
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Now i wanna ask you some questions:
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jonny_k wrote:
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Suppose your wife does not agree with you on a certain issue and rejects your opinion regarding it totally.
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jonny_k wrote:
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What she rejected is harmful in your opinion and lets say in some of your neighbours' opinions as well.
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jonny_k wrote:
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Now youve warned her and deserted her in bed, what would you do next and how?
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jonny_k wrote:
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Another situation say tomorrow your wife doesnt wanna believe in the Quran anymore and she decides to consider becoming an atheist.
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jonny_k wrote:
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Again youve warned her, deserted her in bed and then?
GOD Bless!
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jonny_k wrote:
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Peace all sisters here,
Please dont allow such ignorant and satanic interpretations of Quranic verses to be spread. Also if your married dont remain silent if your husbands' have beaten you. GOD Bless!
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Tanveer wrote:
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Peace sis Boost, There is no confusion, insha Allah.
Following is the scan from Lane Lexicon showing that BOTH "idraba" and "idraba 3anha" can mean the same, i.e. turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it :
Please see where it says "as also idraba [or] idraba 3anha". This clearly shows that it is POSSIBLE for "idraba" to have the meaning of "turned away from, avoided, shunned, left it".
God tells us in al-qur'aan to follow the best meaning, and it is very easy to see what the best meaning of "idriboohunna" is according to the context of 4:34 and 4:128, out of the various possible meanings.
39:18 The ones who listen to what is being said, and then follow the best of it. These are the ones whom God has guided, and these are the ones who possess intelligence.
39:55 And follow the best of what has been sent down to you from your Lord, before the retribution comes to you suddenly when you least expect it.
Peace
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Tanveer wrote:
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Peace Ahmed,
Do you really think everyone here is stupid and cannot read Arabic ?
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Tanveer wrote:
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The scan that I posted clearly shows that "idraba" has the same meaning as "idraba 3anha".
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Tanveer wrote:
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From this it is crystal clear that "idrabuhunna" would be the same as "idrabu 3anhunna".
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Tanveer wrote:
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Everyone can see how you are blatantly lying about what the scan is showing. You have exposed your deceptive tactics yourself.
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Tanveer wrote:
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Sister Boost, this is clear proof that all Ahmed cares is about his ego and not the truth. He would rather tell you lies than the truth, just so he can promote his lengthy "debates", his fallacious interpretations and his own agenda based on his desires and deception.
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This is the last time you defame me brother, you are committing a huge sin indeed
- Wed 03 Jan, 2007 11:07 pm
Post subject:
Hello All
Allah has given us a clear example in the Quran regarding the use of the word Idrab along with the word An to mean To turn away, let's have a look
Shall We then turn away the Message from you and repel (you), for that ye are a people transgressing beyond bounds?
[The Quran ; 43:5]
أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنكُمُ الذِّكْرَ صَفْحًا أَن كُنتُمْ قَوْمًا مُّسْرِفِينَ (5)
-> See, أَفَنَضْرِبُ عَنكُمُ, Afanadrab Ankum, Turn Away from
I.e. we need the word An, عَن along with the word Daraba, َضْرِبُ for the two words to conclusively means To turn away
On the other hand if you drop the word An, عَن then play with the meaning of the word Daraba on its own, is nothing but a clear cut case of following conjectures and the following verse maybe triggered then:
Wert thou to follow the common run of those on earth, they will lead thee away from the way of Allah. They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie
[The Quran ; 6:116]
وَإِن تُطِعْ أَكْثَرَ مَن فِي الأَرْضِ يُضِلُّوكَ عَن سَبِيلِ اللّهِ إِن يَتَّبِعُونَ إِلاَّ الظَّنَّ وَإِنْ هُمْ إِلاَّ يَخْرُصُونَ (116)
-> See, They follow nothing but conjecture: they do nothing but lie
My final say is this:
If verse 4:34 to mean Turn away from them, then it should not be looking like this:
وَاضْرِبُوهُنَّ, Wa Idrabuhuna, And beat them
Rather be looking like this:
وَاضْرِبُوا عنهن, Wa Idrabu Anhuna, And turn away from them
I rest my case forever
Salam
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