All_Brains wrote: |
Now let's talk about another inhumane punishment, however this time stated in the quran....
The amputation..... |
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5:38 As for the thief, both male and female, cut off their hands. It is the reward of their own deeds, an exemplary punishment from Allah. Allah is Mighty, Wise. |
All_Brains wrote: |
Your thoughts please! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Sure! Just keep in mind that the Quran claimed to be clear and easy to understand.... |
All_Brains wrote: |
Ahamad, I am going to make a strong statement here! |
All_Brains wrote: |
I think it defies Logic that the all wise and mighty while stating the punishment for a thieve use "cutting off the hands", as a metaphor for the following reasons: |
All_Brains wrote: |
1) The Quran did not use metaphors when stating clear cut rules like divorce, adulterer and inheritance...so why suddenly use it now?? |
All_Brains wrote: |
2) It's almost irresponsible from Allah to use a metaphor that can be easily be mis-understood by the vast majority of mankind, let alone Muslims, which will be responsible for so many crimes against humanity. |
All_Brains wrote: |
If Allah does exist, i believe he'd be very embarrassed when challenged by all the believers, who would tell him on JD that they were only following his commands... |
All_Brains wrote: |
3) Poetry isn't the right language when your deciding someone's fate or punishment. |
All_Brains wrote: |
4) Same punishment was used in Judasm, so not a strange thing to that area of the world. |
All_Brains wrote: |
5) I know you don't believe in Hadith when not in line with Quran, but since 95% of Muslims believe in the literal word of Quran, the many hadiths, Sunna and Siyrah supports that chopping off the hands was practised when the prophets lived and on some ocassion he actually ordered the punishment! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Languages share many common factors. (Aid) means hand in Arabic and from that word you can get verbs like (Aidda) support... |
All_Brains wrote: |
In English you can use hand as a noun or verb...
Give me your hand (literal hand) I have handed the book to the library (Deliver, give or submit) Could you please give me a hand witn this? (Help or support) |
All_Brains wrote: |
When you use (Aidda) as support, it will be understood that way, but the Quran did not use that word in the alleged verse....It used hands as a noun, and used cut off as a verb! I really fail to see the metaphor here! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Will Ahamd I can see clearly your approach, which is directing the meaning to be that of a metaphoric nature, however I strongly disagree due the reasons above... |
All_Brains wrote: |
In addition the word used (Aidiyahuma) means their hands both (the male and female thief) |
All_Brains wrote: |
in conjuction with verb cut off and the use of (as punishment) shows beyond doubt that the meaning was not a figure of speech! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Ahamd...Surah 5:39 was never a subsititution for the punishment! |
All_Brains wrote: |
In all Allah's punishment, repentance was always required to avoid the hell-fire....otherwise, if this was a criteria for not cutting off the hands, I am sure every criminal would declare repentance. |
All_Brains wrote: |
In Quran, repentance was never enough to stop the punishment after the crime has been committed! |
All_Brains wrote: |
As for your comment : how the hell this person can have a normal life after having one of his hands chopped? |
All_Brains wrote: |
That's exactly the point....The punishment is severe but not uncommon for that era...It lacks wisdom, vision or mercy...beacuse it's not from God, it's man made....as simple as that! |
All_Brains wrote: |
They will simply tell that you don't need a hand to be a good person still, you can still pray, fast and do good deeds...Besises the punishment would have taken some from the hell-fire torture... |
All_Brains wrote: |
They will also declare that your are a kafir, beacuse you are denying the word and rules of Allah, even though it did not make sense to you! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Different context Ahmad. |
All_Brains wrote: |
The above Yusuf story is a naration of incident that actually happened, it had details...there was a specific weapon used...When you tell a story and want to be truthful, you can always specify what exactly happened... |
All_Brains wrote: |
But when you talk about a Hypothetical that may or may not happen, you can't go into specific as long as the end result is achieved....The hands are still cut off with the use of knives, sword or even axes! |
All_Brains wrote: |
You have a good heart and a sound mind and you refuse to believe in such absurdity....however, |
All_Brains wrote: |
you are now tailoring the Quran to fit with your own standards, which I may add...pretty good once! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Thanks you Ahmad....you have shown everyone in FFI beyond doubt now that you are agood human being and fight (in a peaceful way) for what you genuinly believe in...to the extent that you would actually question Allah on JD that your sins were due to his unclarity revealing his words! |
All_Brains wrote: |
You said...we will be using the words of Allah against His own words
This shows beyond doubt that you still find stuff that contradicts itself.. |
All_Brains wrote: |
The fact that you have now imgained God as a person that you can argue with, |
All_Brains wrote: |
as you believe that there is some sort of failure or confusion because of the unclear words of God, shows me that we don't talk to God...we talk to ourselves! |
All_Brains wrote: |
You are a good man Ahamd...So far you don't want to beat your wife, |
All_Brains wrote: |
you don't want to kill the apostates, |
All_Brains wrote: |
You don't want to kill the adulterer |
All_Brains wrote: |
and You don't want to chop off the hands of thieves.... |
All_Brains wrote: |
To the majority of the Muslim world....you are not a true Muslim! My friend... |
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Absolutely not, the Quran never claimed as such, please prove it to me. In fact the Quran is not for under average person nor for the faint hearted, |
All_Brains wrote: |
44.58 - And We have made (this Scripture) easy in thy language only that they may heed.
So, Allah gives us certain inherited IQ, then punishes us for not understanding his wisdom, which required above average IQ???????? |
All_Brains wrote: |
How fair is Allah if this is true? Or any God for that matter. |
All_Brains wrote: |
We owe our debating and understanding abilities to our intelligence, which we have no control or say on...we were born that way!
We could have been also born with below average IQ.....Where would that leave us???? |
All_Brains wrote: |
As a native Arabic Speaker and a Linguist, I challenge you to show me in any written text in the Quran or outside of the Quran, where "Qatt Aiddi"
these two words together were mentioned to express the meaning of cut resources????[/b] |
All_Brains wrote: |
I really don't see here how would 5:39 refute 5:38..... |
All_Brains wrote: |
Have you ever thought about a thief who steals something and never get caught! Don't you think that 5:39 actually cover that scenario rather!? |
All_Brains wrote: |
LOL....You'd make a very good Lawyer!!! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Although I disagree with your 50%, I wouldn't mind at all of the Muslim world had understood that way....Your way....the nice way! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Again, show me these two words together in any Arabic texts with the meaning you advocate! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Are you not a Sunni?? |
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The Christians in the eyes of Muslims are ignorant, the Muslims claim that the Christians follow conjectures that Jesus is the son of god, now a Muslim goes to a Christian and informs him that he is ignorant and Jesus can't be the son of god, the devote Christian straight away will accuse the Muslim of being ignorant and in no way he will take what the Muslim said for granted, for him Jesus will stay the son of god, he was raised that way, noting strange really, now apply this on the Muslim guy, the Muslim guy was raised to believe that the Quran says chop off the hands, the Muslim was raised to believe that the prophet chopped off hands, exactly as the Christian was raised to believe that Luke, Mark, John and Mathew believed that Jesus was the son of god, the Muslims were raised to believe that the Quran says chop of hands, exactly as the Christians were raised to believe the Bible says Jesus is the son of god, now the poor me can use their Bible and their Quran to prove them damn wrong, can you see the similarities mate? |
All_Brains wrote: |
This line of thinking shows me that according to you the word of God had been corrupted in the OT and NT by literally changing and editing it, while in Islam the word of Allah had been corrupted, due the mis-interpretation of its true meaning!!!! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Same end result...all three are corrupt.....same diff! |
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Not really to His un-clarity, rather to the limited knowledge He gave me that I could not crack it, indeed you need the knowledge to crack the Quran, the Quran is never easy nor it said as such about itself. |
All_Brains wrote: |
You were not given knowledge, you acquired it through hard work and brain squeezing.. |
All_Brains wrote: |
the only thing your were given is your IQ (potential), as you can actually shapen that through intellectuall exercies, just like the one we are having now! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Can we have a 24 hours break, I am sure you can use that too! LOL! |
All_Brains wrote: |
Feel free to brain storm though, But I won't for now throw another topic at you....
Chat to you later....AB |
Ultimate_Integral wrote: |
ABhagat: Here is a discussion about the cutting off the hands(if its taken to be literally) on SRI. http://groups.google.com/group/soc.religion.islam/browse_thread/thread/9879fde73788521a/b55b63bfbb05aa27?lnk=raot&hl=en#b55b63bfbb05aa27 |
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You do not understand such law in the Quran, so you better stfu or your ignorance will be slammed hard |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
I'm just interested in the truth, so if I'm wrong, then I want to know. I'm not afraid of my ignorance being slammed hard. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
However, I do not think I am so ignorant, |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
after all. I am an ex-muslim. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
I almost never heard any of the muslims I know attempting to deny that thieves are supposed to have their hands cut off. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
I have not heard of any scholars denying it, either. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
That is the only solution I would accept. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
No one's hand should be cut off under any circumstances. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
So, if you believe that hands should be cut off at all, then we have a difference of opinion. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
This punishment violates my moral standards. Period. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
No if's, and's, or but's. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
There is no way for these moral standards to be argued away by "understanding". It's completely non-negotiable. |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
Furthermore, |
sword_of_truth wrote: |
this leads me to say it is a moral obligation for all human beings to oppose said punishment. Advocate it if you wish, but only at the cost of my respect, and the respect of so many other good people. The only proof I can offer in this regard is this:
http://www.apostatesofislam.com/media/handcutting.htm If you can succeed watching that video and making yourself like hand cutting, you are free to dismiss the validity of my system of morality. Such an individual probably lacks the ability to empathize with other people or is simply in denial about the brutality of their religion. Inability to empathize with the feelings of other people is a trait found in the brains of murderers and other criminals. I personally have NOT succeeded in making myself like hand-cutting, so I am not free to dismiss the validity of my system of morality. If Allah doesn't like that, then I apologize to him, assuming he exists (humoring Him infinitely for a moment), but why did he create me this way, then? It's Allah's own fault that I don't like his punishment. Of course, some polls reveal that many muslims are uncomfortable with this draconian punishment. This is very revealing. Why would Allah instill an innate distaste for his magnificent and just punishment in so many of us? In my own case, when I heard of it, while still a muslim, I literally did not believe that any muslims would advocate such a punishment, until it proved to be so. Even if you do completely deny that Islam prescribes this punishment, there is still the problem of why Allah would put it in the Quran at all, causing so many muslims to interpret it as an actual command that they must physically carry out, resulting in the amputation of countless thieves throughout Islamic history. So, at a minimum, it cannot be denied that this verse has inspired significant human suffering. If the Quran doesn't mean what it says, then at a minimum this shows that it is dangerous. Also, it would mean Allah is either cruel or incompetent, if he allows muslims even the possibility of interpreting his words in this way. Having said that, if muslims can find a way to deny this penalty across the board for all thieves, then they will succeed in meeting my demands on this particular issue, and I would concede that I am refuted. I would certainly support them and wish them luck if this is the path they choose. However, it would be fighting quite an uphill battle with the commonly accepted interpretations. To reform Islam this way might not be impossible in principle, but I believe it would be quite impractical. Next, I should say a word about possible defenses for those that DO approve of hand-cutting. What are the excuses? First of all, there is the following verse in the Quran, saying that Allah forgives those who repent. Perhaps, this could be used to say that if someone repents, they would not be subject to amputation. If we grant the authenticity of the Hadith, this argument can easily be disposed of: "Narrated Aisha: The Quraish people became very worried about the Makhzumiya lady who had committed theft. They said, "Nobody can speak (in favor of the lady) to Allah's Apostle and nobody dares do that except Usama who is the favorite of Allah's Apostle. " When Usama spoke to Allah's Apostle about that matter, Allah's Apostle said, "Do you intercede (with me) to violate one of the legal punishment of Allah?" Then he got up and addressed the people, saying, "O people! The nations before you went astray because if a noble person committed theft, they used to leave him, but if a weak person among them committed theft, they used to inflict the legal punishment on him. By Allah, if Fatima, the daughter of Muhammad committed theft, Muhammad will cut off her hand.!" --Bukhari Volume 8 Book 81 Number 779 This reveals that repentence does not remove the punishment (the woman in question repents and is forgiven AFTER the punishment has been carried out). It only removes the punishment in the Hereafter if you happen to be a muslim. Incidentally, this is another point in favor of my earlier question of why Allah would instill a distaste in us for such a punishment. The Quran-only approach offers a possible solution to this problem, but I won't get into why I think that approach will not work here. There is not only the Hadith, but the interpretation that was accepted by muslims for hundreds of years. Even if repentence removes the penalty, I would still not be completely satisfied. It would indeed be stupid of the thief not to repent and save their hand (assuming this repentence extends also to non-muslims), but it still would be unjust to cut off their hand if they refused to repent. There is yet another problem. In this case, the punishment is too light. I wouldn't dream of suggesting that theft should go unpunished. So, we have the problem of what punishment to give to the repentant thief. Finally, let's consider the defense of the punishment itself. It must be said that I agree with these excuses. However, they only lessen the magnitude of the injustice, not fix the injustice. First of all, the thief cannot be punished for stealing something trivial. Hadith suggest that a non-trivial, but not huge theft is required. Secondly, the if the thief is hungry, say, he can be excused for stealing a loaf of bread. Finally, it is argued that the punishment is merciful because it prevents the thief from stealing in the first place. The end justifies the means, there. Theft is a not such a horrific crime, although it is clearly wrong. It is taking away a mere piece of material wealth from someone. I would pay any amount of money or possessions to keep my hand from being cut off. A man's own hand is one of the most useful and precious things in his life. No price tag can be put on it, hence no amount of theft could ever be great enough to warrant cutting it off. It is true that there could be some good achieved by the punishment, but only at an immense cost, much greater than the good it achieves, to my mind. A final and ludicrous argument is to accuse other people of having even more unjust punishments. This is simply an admission of guilt and can be dismissed. Pointing to someone else's crime is hardly a valid defense against an accusation towards yourself. |
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That is a lie, not a deliberate lie though, rather a lie that is the result of your confusion, you have never been a Muslim, you do not even understand what being a Muslim means, the highest you have been is a mere believer who believed in the God of the Quran, now instead of working on your belief to take to the ultimate level as a Muslim, you went down the gutter with your fellow kafirs instead of going up, i.e. instead of becoming a Muslim after becoming a Mumin, you became a kafir, well done
Being a Muslim does not happen by birth or over night, you need years to achieve it and you have never achieved it, so do not fool yourself |